H.E. Dr. Marwan Muasher
Minister of Foreign Affairs

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Foreign Minister, welcome to Washington, welcome to LATE EDITION. Thanks very much for joining us.

MARWAN MUASHER, JORDANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you. 
 
BLITZER: Let's get right to the issue at hand, immediate issue, one of them, Iraq, your neighbor, a very important development unfolding right now, potentially democracy. King Abdullah of Jordan said this in the "Washington Post" in December, "there is a small window of opportunity over the next several months, probably until February or March, for coalition forces to address some of the major issues of instability." Has that window been successfully exploited?

DR. MUASHER: I think the number of casualties has gone down and the security situation is being addressed in Iraq. What we are now concerned about is the political process. We have welcomed the new interim basic law (ph), which was approved by all Iraqis. We want a process that would lead to, not only majority rule, but minority rights, so that we don't have civil war at our doorstep.

BLITZER: Is this interim constitution that has been signed and approved by the various groups, the Shi'a, the Sunni, the Kurds, in Iraq, is this going to succeed?

DR. MUASHER: We hope it will. I mean I think it's a very good beginning and it lays down basic political and other rights for Iraqis that are excellent. The important thing to keep a hold and note for, as I said, is the fact that any political process in Iraq should have Iraqis be satisfied that their political rights are going to be protected at all times. Other than this, if any political grouping Iraq sees that their rights are not being satisfied, then this is forming a forcible (ph) war. 

BLITZER: Well are you concerned that the Sunnis, for example, who had dominated Iraq under Saddam Hussein, could be at danger because the Shiites are the majority in Iraq?

DR. MUASHER: I think all sides need to be satisfied, not only the Sunnis. You need an arrangement that might not lead to the dismemberment of the country. You need an arrangement that would ensure rights, not only for the Sunnis, but for all other groups in Iraq. If that happens, then it doesn't matter what the political or religious affiliation of the next system or leader of Iraq is as long as other groups are always allowed to participate and to be members of the political process.

BLITZER: Is this timetable for a June 30 hand over from the U.S.-led coalition occupation to Iraqi sovereignty, is that realistic?

DR. MUASHER:  Well I think that you will have a hand over of sovereignty, but what we will not have is the rebuilding of Iraqi security capability and that is equally important. That's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the process, to the political process is a process of rebuilding Iraqi superiority capabilities so that Iraqis themselves are able to take care of their security situation. 

BLITZER: So you want the U.S. and the coalition forces to stay there, at least for the foreseeable future?

DR. MUASHER: Absolutely. Any talk of coalition forces leaving now really only means that you would create another security vacuum in Iraq and that is not in the interest, neither of Iraqis, nor of that region. What we need to do is rebuild the Iraqi capability. We are doing it in Jordan through the training of the police force in Iraq and members of the military, also. This is, of course, not in us (ph), and we hope that more of this can be done so
that the security capability is rebuilt and at a fast pace. 

BLITZER: I know that some of the countries surrounding Iraq, Kuwait in particular, some of the other Arab countries in the Gulf, have been concerned about the instability, the insurgency from within Iraq spreading out to other countries. How worried are you that this could affect security in Jordan?

DR. MUASHER: We're not worried about instability in Iraq spilling over into Jordan. I mean that we control our borders very well. What we are worried about is a situation that might arise where dismembership (ph) or 
dismembership of the country is affected. If that happens, if Iraq is no longer a united country, that is going to invite instability in the region more than the actions of a small terrorist group in Iraq.

BLITZER: But is that realistic that Iraq could simply fall apart?

DR. MUASHER: No, I mean -- I mean that is a far -- a remote possibility, but it is still a responsibility we have to guard against. And we have talked with the Iraqis about this and were reassured to hear from all groups that this 
is not on the books.

BLITZER: You have worked with the Secretary of State Colin Powell, with the Bush administration in trying to  support democracy. The roots of democracy gaining ground throughout the Arab world. But others, like President Mubarak of Egypt, President Bashar al-Assad of Syria, they have resisted this effort. And I know it will be an issue at the Arab summit in Tunisia coming up at the end of the month. What realistically can be done to try to get democracy going throughout the Arab world?

DR. MUASHER: I think there are already many efforts around the Arab world in order to affect genuine reform. I can only point to the Arab Human Development Report as one of the efforts in order to do that. What we are trying to do is to come up with a set of principles at the Arab summit that would commit the whole region to reform,  political and social and economic reform. But it is very important to emphasize that this should be a homegrown process that would come out of the region rather than a blueprint that might be enforced from the outside. And what we hope to do is then to invite the international community to assist us in our own efforts to achieve political reform in the region. And I am quite hopeful that this indeed might be the outcome in the next Arab summit.

BLITZER: As you know, there were reports here confirmed, our David Ensor, our national security correspondent, confirmed them that Saddam Hussein's two sons, Uday and Qusay Hussein, had gotten into Syria during the U.S.-led war in Iraq, but eventually they were forced out back into Iraq. They were killed in Mosul, as you well know. Where does Syria stand, from your perspective, being an important neighbor of Jordan, in this whole war against terrorism?

DR. MUASHER:  Well I think it is important for all countries to take a very strong stand against terrorism. Syria has cooperated against al Qaeda with the United States. And what we are talking to is a regional regime where 
by all countries of the region really cooperate on this very, very important issue. What you are seeing in Iraq today is work by many terrorist organizations, foreign elements coming in and blowing now off track (ph). 

BLITZER: Because you know here in Washington they are threatening sanctions, more sanctions against Syria supposedly not doing enough to cooperate in the war against terror. Is this smart?

DR. MUASHER: I hope that differences with Syria can be resolved through a dialog, which of course we do need all countries of the region to cooperate, not just on this issue, but on other issues. And I think the importance for dialog is there.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the roadmap between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which right now seems to be going nowhere, unfortunately. It was supposed to lead to an end of violence. Phase two, a transition to an  independent Palestinian state December of 2003. Of course that's come and gone. And then phase three, a permanent status agreement by 2005. Can the leaders of the Arab world meeting in Tunisia this month do something to get a dialog, negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians back on track? 

DR. MUASHER:  There is a feeling in the Arab world that, first of all, the Arab initiative needs to be better marketed around the world and to Israeli public opinion directly.

BLITZER: Because you did take in Beirut, a couple of years ago, some important steps that, unfortunately, don't seem to have materialized into anything concrete.

DR. MUASHER:  We did. And the Arab initiative promised Israel just about every, addressed every basic needs of the Israelis, collective peace treaty, collective security guarantees and agreed solution to the refugee problem   and an end to the conflict. Unfortunately, we have not been able to articulate as well, particularly the Israeli public opinion, and we want, hopefully, to take steps in Beirut to reiterate our commitment to the initiative and to articulate it in a better fashion.

BLITZER: So what will you do and what do you anticipate the leaders of the Arab world will do in Tunisia?

DR. MUASHER:  One, I hope that we can approve a plan to articulate the Arab initiative in a better way. Two, I hope we can support Palestinian efforts arriving at the permanent and comprehensive cease fire, followed by all the security arrangements needed to revive the host mass (ph). And I also hope that we can take and add a public stance against operations targeting civilians on both sides.

BLITZER: Two weeks ago, when I interviewed the Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on this program, he spoke of the security barrier that the Israelis are building along the line between Israel and the West Bank. Some of it going inside the West Bank. Listen to what he said.

BLITZER: What do you think of that Israeli position that they need this in order to prevent the kind of terrorism that we have seen in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv and Haifa and other cities of Israel? 

DR. MUASHER:  We have not taken a stand against Israel defending itself against such operations. And indeed, if   Israel wants to defend Israeli population centers, then it can build the wall within its own territory on the '67 line.  No one objects to that. Israel is not doing that, but instead is building the fence inside Palestinian territory and therefore, jeopardizing the lives of the Palestinian population.

BLITZER: But the Israelis make the point that they want to protect those Jewish settlements that are along the line and keep those Israeli citizens safe as well.

DR. MUASHER:  First of all, it's one thing to talk about protecting Israel as inside the Green Line. It's another thing to protect illegal settlements. This is not an argument against targeting settlements. I mean we are all for a stop to all violence. But while we do so, we also have to take into consideration the lives of the Palestinian population  and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are going to be affected through the arrangements of getting in and out of the wall. This is why we strongly protest and object to the course of the wall and to the arrangements that accompany that wall and not to the wall itself, if it is built within Israeli territory.

BLITZER: The critics, though, of your position, including the "Washington Post," which wrote an editorial on this subject, the aftermath of the whole meeting in The Hague when the international community, at least a big chunk of it, came to criticize the Israelis. The "Washington Post" wrote in an editorial, and I'll read it to you.
It said, "The Palestinian leadership has chosen to press its cause not with potentially productive steps, such as a crackdown on terrorists and the renewal of negotiations with Israel, but with pointless and inflammatory 
grandstanding before irrelevant international bodies."

Now Jordan participated in that meeting as well. Grandstanding, it was simply public relations, because it had  no legal standing. Is the "Washington Post" right when it says the Palestinians must take the steps in cracking down on terrorists themselves and renewing negotiations with Israel? Is Yasser Arafat capable of doing that?

DR. MUASHER:  If we are interested in scoring PR points, we would not have taken in Jordan a strong public position against suicide bombings. The point is not to score PR points. The point is to stress that this wall is going to kill any prospect for a two-state solution. And if that is the case, then that will endanger not only Palestinian interests, but Jordanian ones as well, because it's a real live (ph) Jordanian option. 

And I think the campaign against the wall has already succeeded in Israel admitting that it is endangering the lives of Palestinians and in publicly announcing that it will change the course of the wall. Again, we have to emphasize that the course of the wall and the arrangements accompanying that wall being built inside Palestinian territory is the problem rather than the wall itself.

BLITZER: But isn't the real problem the fact that these terrorist groups, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad, that they are continuing on their way and that the Palestinian Authority, led by Yasser Arafat, really has not 
done much, if anything, to crack down on that? 

DR. MUASHER: That's another problem, it's not the only problem. That's another problem. And we also have taken a strong public position against it, as I said, and have taken effort -- are involved in efforts to deal with this problem. These suicide bombings should stop. They are wrong from a moral and a political point of view. They  have hurt the Palestinian cause and we cannot keep on acquiescing in such activities. But the fact remains, also, that the course of the wall is also wrong.

BLITZER: We have to leave it right there. Marwan Muasher, the Foreign Minister of Jordan, thanks for joining us.

DR. MUASHER: Thank you.

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