His Majesty King Abdullah II
Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah by NBC's Tom Brokaw
June 14, 2004
TOM BROKAW: Your Majesty, do you think that the new plan for Iraq can work
without additional military forces, especially NATO forces, to secure the
borders?
HIS MAJESTY KING ABDULLAH: I think, again, this is a decision for the new Iraqi
government. But I would imagine that a stronger role from NATO is something that
is needed. The borders are an issue with people coming across at the moment.
TOM BROKAW: But NATO is so resistant. They just don't want to get involved.
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, if it's not NATO under the United Nations umbrella, but we do
need to get people on the ground. The instability I think will continue to to
move in in a negative direction leading up to the handover. I think there will
be less attacks on coalitions right afterwards but what I'm concerned about
after the June hand over will be more
violence in the initial phases.
TOM BROKAW: Do you think that there could be an all out civil war in Iraq after June
30th?
HM KING ABDULLAH: No, and we hope not. But I think that people, there will be more
more conflict between the Shiites and the Kurds unfortunately until things
settle down.
TOM BROKAW: How do you get that resolved, especially with one part of the
Constitution guaranteeing minority rights?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, I'm hoping that, as the leadership settles, as Iraqis settle
and feel that they have a more of a role in their future, that the silent
majority will start to make themselves be heard and take responsibility for the
future of their country. But it's going to be a very difficult year for Iraqis.
TOM BROKAW: In this country there's always the impression that democracies happen
over night and that they're all one big happy family. But what are the chances
in Iraq of having one big happy family a year and a half from now with real
elections and representative democracy?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, that's what we obviously all hope for. And that's what the
international community is working towards. But democracy takes time. Each
country has its own issues, its own culture and has its own pace. We do hope
that the elections will be held by 2005. I think that the window is short. We'd
like it to be successful. And I think all of us are keeping our fingers crossed
and holding our breath.
TOM BROKAW: Long term, aren't the chances much greater that Iraq will be divided up
into three parts the Shiite, the Sunni and the Kurds and there will be some
kind of a federation?
HM KING ABDULLAH: I don't see that working because, as you move towards that notion,
then what you probably will end is propelling Iraqi society towards a civil war
which is something that we want to avoid. Not only creating major problems for
Iran and Turkey because of some of the minority groups. So I can't see that
happening at the moment.
TOM BROKAW: You're a long time friend of this country. Can you remember a time when
the United States was held in lower esteem throughout the Arab world than right
now?
HM KING ABDULLAH: This is of tremendous concern to all the friends of the United
States. The frustration of anger that you feel in the Middle East and elsewhere
has never been so negative towards the United States. And it concerns me.
The change that I felt over the past year or two is not the old argument that
we're against American policy but not against Americans. For the first time
there's frustration towards Americans themselves. And as somebody who's studied
here and has many friends in this country, it really is sort of it hurts me to
see this feeling. And unfortunately I don't think the majority of Americans
realize this changing of atmosphere that is happening throughout the world.
TOM BROKAW: When you share that feeling with your friends in the White House, and I
know you talked with and met with Condoleezza Rice among others, what's their
reaction?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, I I think they're looking at dealing with the issues on the
ground. But I think that they have to realize that their policies are having an
effect on the way people look towards the United States. And as I said it's not
just the region. I mean, I hear this in Europe and I hear this in Asia.
TOM BROKAW: But do they understand it in the White House?
HM KING ABDULLAH: I think they do understand it. But I think, maybe they're that,
in a way you can be too too much into the trenches with dealing with Iraq or
the Israeli/Palestinian situation, to be able to do something that would change
that. I mean, obviously once you solve Iraq and Iraq is back as part of the
international community and the core issue of the Middle East is really a
Palestinian one, then things will be back to normal.
But the images that we see on television, unfortunately, in our part of the
world we have Israeli tanks with Palestinians and American tanks with Iraqis
it's making it more and more difficult for the friends of the United States to
argue that America and the policies of America are for the best
of our part of
the world.
TOM BROKAW: And all the more intensified by the images coming out of Abu Ghraib
prison?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Obviously that had a negative impact. But I think it people in
the United States were just as disturbed as as people in our part of the world
or elsewhere.
TOM BROKAW: Can the United States ever get back to a favorable position as long as
the Israeli/Palestinian conflict continues at the level that it is now?
HM KING ABDULLAH: No. And none of us have any hope for the a true future in the
Middle East or the rest of the world for that matter if we don't solve this
critical core issue of the Middle East. I don't think people understand how
emotional the Israeli/Palestinian issue is in our region. We talk about reform
we talk about a future for Iraq, with talk about East meets West. If we don't
solve this major problem we will never have the peace and stability that we all
desire. And we're all affected by this. The United States, Jordan, nobody is
safe from this problem. And if it continues to linger, then we're all threatened
by it. If we don't solve this problem then the future is not gonna be a bright
one for any of us.
TOM BROKAW: But isn't a lot of the burden also on the Palestinians, particularly on
Yasser Arafat and then, just this week again, Hamas has said, "We'll send more
suicide bombers across the border?"
HM KING ABDULLAH: I mean, I believe the burden is on both sides to be able to move
forward. And the Israeli government to give more support to the Palestinian
government, to be able to strengthen their institutions and also Palestinian
society political society to sort out their differences and realize that
maybe the competition between them is is costing them the future of their
state.
TOM BROKAW: Why isn't there more condemnation of the use of young Arabs,
Palestinians particularly, as suicide bombers by you, by President Mubarak of
Egypt, by the Saudis, by the other Arab leaders?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, I think that you find that there is, inside of Middle Eastern
society. It's talked now for the first time in great detail inside the West Bank
and, what I call the silent majority, are now actively talking that suicide
bombers are not helping their cause. Jordan was instrumental in adding to the
new peace declaration and to an addition that condemns, by every Arab country,
terrorism and suicide bombings.
We are building up a momentum of being able to do that. The modern countries
have been always outspoken about terrorism and terrorist bombing suicide
bombings. But now that sort of that that reaction is throughout the Middle
East and in societies that is being discussed for the first time.
TOM BROKAW: Does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict need to be moved to a much higher
level? It's getting episodic attention from the United States and from the West.
Does it require some kind of grand summit?
HM KING ABDULLAH: The quartet at the moment are working on moving the process along.
Obviously, Sharon's
has to be fully articulated his revised plan. Once we have
a better understanding and hoping that that is part and parcel of the road map,
then the international community can move the process forward. We in Jordan and
the Egyptians have been asked to help train the new Palestinian security forces,
for example.
As we move the security situation into a positive note, then we can tackle the
road map and get it back up and started again. But again, the more time we lose
the more it hurts all of us.
TOM BROKAW: And can it be resolved with the Israeli settlements staying in place?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, I mean, a lot of these issues are for final status. But, we
hope that, if the
plan is successful as part being part of the road map, then
obviously we'd like to see the same thing happen in the West Bank.
TOM BROKAW: How concerned are you that Iraq will become a theocracy run by the
Shiite with a strong sponsorship from Iran?
HM KING ABDULLAH: That is a possibility. And that is a threat. Again, as we went back
to the earlier question about a federation, I think that is a concern for all of
us. What we want to do is give this new government a chance to be able to stand
on its own two feet without external interference from neighboring countries.
And it's going to be a day by day thing.
TOM BROKAW: Part of the reason for the United States going to war against Iraq,
according to the President, was to diminish the threat of terrorism. Do you
think that there is more or less terrorism now?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, if you want to deal with terrorism you have to deal with the
core issue in the Middle East which is the Israeli/Palestinian one. That is the
main recruiter for terrorism. That is the main sore that we all suffer with in
the Middle East.
The military part of hunting down and killing terrorists, that's the easy part.
It's going to the core roots. Why do we have terrorists? Why do we have
terrorism? And the answer for our part of the world is the Israeli/Palestinian
issue. Solve that and the overwhelming majority of the problem is over.
TOM BROKAW: In this country there is widespread belief that the principle leader of
the insurgence in Iraq is a Jordanian by the name of Zarqawi who is ruthless and
cunning and extremely effective in carrying out the kind of warfare that he has
chosen. Is there now way that Jordanian intelligence can help the United States
track him down?
HM KING ABDULLAH: (Laughs) I think the international intelligence organizations have
been working very hard in tracking him and all his colleagues down. You get
leads and then you lose some. But slowly the net is closing in on these people.
It's not just Zarqawi, it's, the whole organization. But believe me everybody is
working 110 percent at it.
TOM BROKAW: What has been the effect of all of this on your country? Jordan is
caught in the pincers between the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and you're on the
border with Iraq?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, we've we've actually come through this extremely well. The
Jordanian economy sprang back very quickly after the Iraq war. There's
stability, there's an understanding in in our country that, you know, we have
to look after ourselves. Looking at all points of the compass we see
difficulties with all of our neighbors. And so there's a there's a sense of
maturing in our country.
But having said that, there's no direct effect to Jordan but the instability
east or west of us make reforms and make what we're trying to do as progressing
Jordan forward that much more difficult. And that is why
Iraq the
Israeli/Palestinian issue you get 110-percent from Jordan because that success
is in the future our success also.
TOM BROKAW: Your Majesty, as you know, Americans are now being targeted in Saudi
Arabia. Anti-American feelings in the Middle East are at fever pitch. There's
violence everyday between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Can you understand
why Americans are gonna say to themselves, "Well, I was thinking about planning
a tourist trip to the Middle East, maybe even to Jordan. But I don't think I'm
gonna go?"
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, that's that's the sadness. If something was to happen in a
horrible crime as it happened in Spain several months ago, doesn't mean you
can't go to France. And this is one of the problems that we've always [had] when
it comes to tourism. Jordan is a safe place.
But Saudi Arabia, the government, is dedicated to fighting these extremists. I
think it's the responsibility of all of us in the international community to
stand by the Saudis and the crown prince in their efforts to combat the
extremist threat in Saudi Arabia and make sure that they can they can win
this.
TOM BROKAW: In the years that I've been a journalist, I cannot remember a time when
the differences between the Islamic culture and the Western ideal Western
civilization were in such a poisonous state. And it's hard for me to see how
there can be any easy or short term resolution to that.
HM KING ABDULLAH: But that's when it becomes poisonous. It is the extremists on
either side that want to make it poisonous in all societies. The overwhelming
majority have the values that are commonly shared with each other. This is not a
conflict between East and West. It is elements extremist elements on either
side that want to create fear, suspicion, hatred.
And it it's up to us, the overwhelming majority, not to let them get away with
it. I mean, I don't agree that there is a problem between East and West. And we
need to stand up and say that.
TOM BROKAW: In five years what will we see in Iraq?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Hopefully we will see a stable, strong Iraqi government and an Iraq
that is part and parcel of the international community, a positive influence for
our region. Iraq is the cradle of civilization as far as I'm concerned
historically. It always has been. Iraq has tremendous resources. It has a very
educated population.
The capability of Iraq being part of the international community would be a
tremendous plus for the Middle East. Five years from now if we all work to
support the Iraqis it can be done.
TOM BROKAW: And will it have a radiant effect on your part of the world, on Jordan?
HM KING ABDULLAH: On all of us. It, again, I mean, Iraq's capabilities have been
historically so, so significant to to Middle Eastern history. If they can come
together and have the future we all wish for them to have, it would be such a
position influence to all of us in the area. Definite.
TOM BROKAW: Your Majesty, thank you very much.
HM KING ABDULLAH: Thank you, sir.