His Majesty King Abdullah II
Interview with HM King
Abdullah discussing politics in the Middle East
MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews
December 8, 2004
Washington, D.C.
CHRIS MATTHEWS: Tonight one
of America`s key allies in the Middle East, I asked Jordan`s King Abdullah
whether the Ayatollah Sistani, the religious leader expected to dominate Iraq
after January`s election is secretly loyal to Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that is the feeling in our part of the world that
that is the case. But there is a relationship with Iran, he does have a lot of
following on the streets of Iraq, but his allegiance at the end of the day will
be to Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: And the king says Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi exile championed by
many in the Bush administration will cause America to lose out in Iraq. Let`s
play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews. Will Iraq`s elections in January yield an
Islamic republic? I interviewed His Majesty King Abdullah of Jordan today and he
said that the country the United States has spilled blood to save could quickly
become a captive of neighboring Iran.
He said the Ayatollah Sistani, the religious leader of the majority Shia has
loyalties to Iran. He also said we need a viable Palestinian state established
within a year or so or else Israel and the Arabs will be face decades of
bloodshed. I began by asking King Abdullah who our enemy in Iraq really is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Let`s start with Iraq. What is the United States facing over
there when you see news accounts, you get them in Jordan, who are the enemy for
the United States?
HIS MAJESTY KING ABDULLAH II, KING OF JORDAN: At the moment, the
Americans feel that the insurgents and the Baath extremists are the enemy. I
think it`s more complicated than that. There`s frustration in different parts of
Iraqi society and as we move closer to the elections, it`s not clear to the
Iraqis where the future lies. We hope that the election on January 30 will bring
the country together and give it an opportunity to move forward.
MATTHEWS: Do you have a sense of a worse outcome that might play out in Iraq
after the elections?
HM KING ABDULLAH: The worst outcome is you don`t have a secular state. In other words
the new government is strongly represented by those who might have support from
Iran. We hope that`s not the case. As you are aware, there`s an issue of the
Sunnis, we want them to go to the elections, we want them to be part of the
process. If they`re not then there could be more difficulties.
MATTHEWS: Do you fear that the Shia majority may win the election, declare an
Islamic state and form a close alliance with Iran?
HM KING ABDULLAH: There is a lot of Iraqi Shia that are Iraqi and believe in the future
of Iraq but at the same time there is Iranian influence on the Iraqi street and
I think that is the worst-case scenario that Iranian influenced government comes
to power and then where do we go from there.
MATTHEWS: Do you think that would be a danger to the region, an alliance between
a Shia-led Iraq and Iran?
HM KING ABDULLAH: If it was a Shia-led Iraq that had a special relationship with Iran
and you look at that relationship with Syria and Hezbollah and Lebanon, then we
have this now crescent that appears that will be very destabilizing for the Gulf
countries and for the whole region.
MATTHEWS: What would it do to the United States in the Middle East?
HM KING ABDULLAH: It would make it far more difficult. There`s some red lines that will
have to be drawn because what you`re doing is creating an issue in Iraq that
goes beyond the borders of Iraq and then you would have to look at the stability
of the Gulf countries, of Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab Peninsula.
MATTHEWS: Are you concerned that the Ayatollah Sistani is Iranian- born, it`s
said that he speaks with a Persian accent, with an Iranian accent, he seems like
he comes from Iran more than just because of his birth, are you concerned that
he may have loyalty to Iran?
HM KING ABDULLAH: I think that is the feeling in our part of the woods that that is the
case, that there is a relationship with Iran. He does have a lot of following on
the streets in Iraq. But his allegiance at the end of the day would be to Iran
and not to Iraq.
MATTHEWS: The goal of the Iranian people I understand is to try to gain control
of the holy places within Iraq. Explain why that`s so important in this conflict
between Shia and Sunni.
HM KING ABDULLAH: For Shia, the traditional holy places are in Iraq. Obviously when Iraq
became an independent country, Shia religious authority moved to come in Iran.
It is for this reason why it`s very important for Iranians to get involved in
southern Iraq because I don`t think they want that religious authority to be
transferred to another country. They are the bastion of the Shia sector of Islam
and to have Iraq as a place of reverence is very destabilizing for them.
MATTHEWS: But the Iranian people would like to get control of those holy places.
HM KING ABDULLAH: It is for their own strategic interests so that their religious clergy
can control from southern Iraq, Najaf and Karbala, as well as the authority in
(UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about Ahmed Chalabi. He`s a wanted man still in Jordan,
isn`t he?
HM KING ABDULLAH: He is wanted by a court of law in Jordan and in Lebanon, I believe.
And he is in Iraq at the moment. He has from what I know, very good
relationships with the Iranians and it will be interesting to see how that pans
out. I know for a fact that him and Sistani I think are on the same ticket when
it comes to elections.
MATTHEWS: Can you imagine a picture sometime in late January of the photograph
of the new government of Iraq with a picture of everyone. Right in there as the
new oil minister, Ahmad Chalabi? Can you imagine that picture?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Quite conceivable.
MATTHEWS: Wouldn`t that be odd to have a wanted man as oil minister of a
country?
HM KING ABDULLAH: It will be interesting how American policy will deal with that because
I believe that he has very good relationships with Iran and I think that he has
played people off and I think America will lose out.
MATTHEWS: Watching American policy in terms of beginning with the invasion of
Iraq right through, how would you grade it for its success?
HM KING ABDULLAH: The argument is are we better off today or are we worse off? If Iraq
moves in the right direction as part of international community, we`re going to
be better off. I think it`s difficult to take a little snapshot in history.
Elections is a new phase in Iraqi life. If it moves in the right direction and
Iraq can be pulled into the international community, then we will be better off.
MATTHEWS: Do you think as of the time we speak today in December of 2004, do you
believe there are more terrorists in the world today because of our invasion of
Iraq?
HM KING ABDULLAH: I think there are more terrorists in the world today because the
Israeli-Palestinian situation is not being resolved. The battle against
terrorism is not killing terrorists it`s trying to solve the root cause of
terror. The root cause of terror in our part of the world is the core problem
which is the Israeli/Palestinian issue.
MATTHEWS: Let me put it in the worst-case scenario. If we fail to find a role
for a Palestinian state in that part of the world, your part of the world, what
are the stakes?
HM KING ABDULLAH: The stakes mean that we will doom the region to many more decades of
violence. His late majesty always believed that for Israel to be fully
integrated into the Middle East, we keep saying that Israel`s future should be
from Morocco in the Atlantic to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Indian Ocean. The Arab
countries have all signed on to declarations of full normal relations with
Israel that guarantee their security and their future. But that comes at a price
and the price is the future for the Palestinians. The problem that we have on
the ground physically is what we call the viable Palestinian state. I think
we`ll lose the viable part of this platform in the next year or so if we don`t
move the road map along. And if there`s no future for the Palestinians, how can
there be a future between the Israelis and the Arabs. And that`s what concerns
me the most.
MATTHEWS: If we don`t get a viable Palestinian state will Israel be viable?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Well, it would be viable because there will be those that will use the
excuse that we need Israel as a front line. For how many more decades do parents
and children have to suffer? Let us have peace between the Israelis and the
Palestinians so we can have peace between the Arabs and Israelis and let us all
get on with our lives.
MATTHEWS: We get two views of the deal that was turned down by Yasser Arafat
back at the end of the Clinton administration. One is that he was being offered
a bunch of Swiss cheese, Israeli settlements all over the West Bank, big
highways flying by little Arab communities, everybody cut off from each other
and not a real country. And not enough influence, in fact, a sovereignty within
Jerusalem. How did you see that offer? Was it a good offer or a bad offer that
Yasser Arafat turned down?
HM KING ABDULLAH: I thought it was a good offer. It was not for me or anybody else in
the Arab world to make that decision, it was up to the Palestinians. If we go
back to 1998, we`re talking about 98 percent of the West Bank and Gaza. We`re
talking less than 40, 50 percent today. What will we talk about tomorrow? And I
have to point out again, a viable independent Palestinian state and the problem
is the viability aspect of this.
MATTHEWS: What are the parameters? What does it take to be viable? Jerusalem?
HM KING ABDULLAH: Jerusalem and a decent part of the West Bank that makes sense. If you
have cantonize (ph) the West Bank and have just little hamlets and pockets of
Palestinian Authority, that`s not a state. There will never be the feeling of
reassurance between the Arabs and Israelis to move...
MATTHEWS: Do you think President Bush is ready to move in the direction of
pushing for that kind of resolution?
HM KING ABDULLAH: I believe so. President Bush right after the election was adamant to
point out his support for the peace process. He spent more time than I expected
in his conference with Tony Blair several weeks ago. With me he was very direct
that he wants to really push for the process. Now hopefully after the
Palestinians have their elections on January 9, there will be a Palestinian
partner for peace. Our job now is to make sure then is to get the Palestinian
Authority to engage with the Israelis and then it takes the quartet, the United
States, the United Nations, Europe Union and Rush, to step in and say enough,
you too sides have to go through the road map. .
MATTHEWS: Are you more optimistic your highness, today, about a peace in the
Middle East then you were say, a year ago?
HM KING ABDULLAH: The circumstances have changed. Obviously...
MATTHEWS: Yasser Arafat has passed away.
HM KING ABDULLAH: Passed away. New leadership.
MATTHEWS: Has the president changed in his tone lately since the election?
HM KING ABDULLAH: The president -- the president was the first American president to
articulate a viable Palestinian state by 2005. I think he put 2005 on purpose,
so that we can be fixated that there is a time problem, and he created a vehicle
to get there, which was called a road map. Obviously, I think the election
process here, people were more busy with domestic issues than international. But
I think the president is ready now be able to engage. There`s a slight delayed
problem which is January 8, make sure the Palestinians have a new leader -- have
a new authority. And then we`ll take it from there.
MATTHEWS: OK, thank you. Your majesty we`ll be right back. King Abdullah, we`ll
have more with the king in just a moment.