Ambassador Karim Kawar

Interview by Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer
CNN

March 6, 2005 

Transcript:
Interview with Ambassador Karim Kawar, Ambassador Nabil Fahmy (Egypt) and Ambassador Danny Ayalon (Israel).

BLITZER: And joining us now with perspective on what's unfolding in Lebanon, indeed across the Middle East, three of the region's top diplomats: Karim Kawar is Jordan's ambassador to the United States. Nabil Fahmy is Egypt's ambassador to the United States. And Daniel Ayalon is Israel's ambassador to the United States.

Gentlemen, welcome to "LATE EDITION." Thank you very much for joining us.

Let's talk about Syria, Lebanon. And listen to what the president, President Bush, said on Friday in New Jersey. He was not mincing any words. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: There's no half-measures involved. When the United States and France and others say withdrawal, we mean complete withdrawal, no half-hearted measures.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Ambassador Fahmy, I'll start with Egypt's position. What does Egypt want Syria to do?

NABIL FAHMY, EGYPT'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Well, as we have said publicly, we have been in touch with the Syrians even before recent events, before the recent crisis, that it was time to implement the Taif Agreement.

BLITZER: The Taif Agreement from 1989.

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: 1989, which was late, and which needed to be implemented, withdrawal to the Bekaa, and then ultimately withdrawal into Syria itself.

The point now is, how do we achieve that? I think the statement made yesterday by President Assad is a good opening. We need to work with him to ensure that this happens in the near term.

BLITZER: Dan Bartlett, on this program earlier, said it's got to be done before the Lebanese can have free and fair elections. They can't have elections under a Syrian military presence in Lebanon.

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: One has to be careful here. What's important is to get it done as soon as we can in a sustained manner. I'm not talking about finding ways out for not doing it. Whether it can be done before May, which is election time, whether the elections will be held there or not, that's ultimately something for the Lebanese to decide.

But we need to have this done in a manner that is useful both to the Lebanese and to the Syrians and that achieves a withdrawal from Syria.

BLITZER: What about Jordan's position?

KARIM KAWAR, JORDAN'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Jordan supports the U.N. Security Council resolutions, so we support Resolution 1559, and we support all other resolutions. So this is the international community taking a common stance.

BLITZER: What's a realistic goal for the complete withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: In terms of time, this has to be worked out between the Syrians and the Lebanese, but I think one that ensures a stable Lebanon. Certainly we don't want to see any upheaval that happens there, but one that also ensures free and fair elections.

BLITZER: But you want them to get out soon?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: Well, we support the U.N. Security Council resolutions, and that's what it calls for.

BLITZER: Israel has a keen interest in watching this scenario unfold, the situation unfold, between Syria and Lebanon. What's your stance?

DANIEL AYALON, ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Well, obviously we are following very closely the developments in Lebanon. And we also support the universal, now, demand of the international community for the Syrians to leave Lebanon.

But also it's worth mentioning that for, really, the Lebanese government to regain sovereignty over all its borders, the Hezbollah, which is a major and very dangerous terror organization, has to be dismantled.

And also there are some elements...

BLITZER: Who's going to dismantle the Hezbollah?

AMBASSADOR AYALON: Well, I think that, if there is a persistent pressure, that can be done.

By the way, in order to implement Taif fully, which means regaining of the sovereignty of the Lebanese government all over the territory of Lebanon, Hezbollah has to also be dismantled. This is the only organization which was not dismantled following the civil war.

And also there is an element of Iranians' presence there, Revolutionary Guards in the Bekaa, which also will have to go.

BLITZER: The whole issue of Hezbollah -- Hezbollah now says they're going to have a big demonstration on Tuesday, a pro-Syrian demonstration. The Hezbollah has had a close relationship with Syria and Iran.

How do you see that situation unfolding? Because it's now a part of the political process in Lebanon, as well. There are members of the parliament.

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: I think what's important is to take into account now, whichever place one may stand vis-a-vis Hezbollah, is it is part of the Lebanese paradigm. The Lebanese themselves have to decide what role Hezbollah will play in the future, what political role, what other role they may or may not play. It's not, frankly, for other Arab countries to decide that, or for other countries to decide.

So, that's an important element which didn't exist when this whole process started. They've become a political force inside Lebanon.

Now, the point is, how do we pursue politics, not violence and leading to insecurity on one side or the other?

It's a complicated procedure. And that's why I said one should continue to work with the parties, including the Syrians, to ensure their withdrawal. But you have to do it in a very subtle and complex manner.

BLITZER: Where do you see the Hezbollah situation unfolding in Lebanon?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: Well, I do agree with Nabil that today Hezbollah has very much a political presence in Lebanon that has been key and very much regarded by many Lebanese. And therefore, this is an internal issue that the Lebanese have to work out.

But certainly, we hope that violence would not be what the Lebanese would resort to, to resolve this problem.

BLITZER: Are you concerned there could be a return of sectarian/ethnic/religious conflict within Lebanon in the aftermath of a Syrian pullout?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: What we have seen over the past two weeks has been very civilized. And I think this is a breath of fresh air in our region, that we don't have to resort to violence to solve our problems.

And this sustained pressure by the Lebanese people is certainly new in our region. And hopefully it will have the results that the Lebanese are comfortable with.

BLITZER: Israel is known for having a renowned intelligence service. Do you know who killed the former Lebanese prime minister, Rafik Hariri?

AMBASSADOR AYALON: No. But I think there are some, I would say, fingerprints which can direct us to Syrian intelligence. There was a former president of Lebanon, Bachir Gemayel in 1983, which was killed almost in the same way (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Syrians than I believe it is also now.

But Syria, by having control over Lebanon directly or indirectly, is responsible for the safety, for the public order there, law and order, and so it's responsible for it.

BLITZER: What is Egypt's suspicion?

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: No, we're not ready to throw out accusations one way or the other. The situation is complicated enough. This was a tragedy. Ultimately, the Lebanese people will pay a price for the tragedy because it's created a degree of turmoil amongst them.

If, as they can be, they resort to their productiveness, this may turn out to the better. But at the end of the day, it's too early to point fingers. When we find out the truth, whoever it will be, will have been held accountable.

BLITZER: I assume Jordan takes the same position.

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: An investigation is under way, and we wait to see the results from that.

BLITZER: All right. Let's take a quick break.

We have lots more to talk about with our Jordanian, Egyptian and Israeli ambassadors to the United States. Are times really changing for the better in the Middle East? We'll discuss that.

Also ahead, we'll get a quick check of what is in the news now, including violence at a Women's Day demonstration in Turkey.

Stay with "LATE EDITION."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're talking about whether the Middle East is poised for sweeping political changes with the Jordanian ambassador to the United States, Karim Kawar; Egypt's ambassador to the United States, Nabil Fahmy; and Israel's ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon.

Mr. Ayalon, I'll begin with you. Last week on this program, Buthaina Shaaban, the Syrian cabinet minister, was on; flatly denied accusations that Syria had anything to do with that recent terrorist attack on that nightclub in Tel Aviv.

Listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUTHAINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN CABINET MINISTER: Syria has reiterated so many times that it has nothing to do with anything that takes place inside Israel or inside the occupied territory. But as you know, Wolf, nowadays, if a terrorist attack took place in Beirut, they accuse Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Do you have any hard evidence that the Syrian government specifically coordinated, orchestrated, planned that terror attack?

AMBASSADOR AYALON: Well, we have very hard evidence that this terror attack came from Damascus.

And there is nothing new with this claims of the Syrians. They've been telling for years that there are no terror organizations, but this is not the truth. We know it. I think the United States knows it. And I think also it was mentioned by high-level American diplomats and officials directing the blame straight to Syria. This was the case, and we lost five Israelis because of Syria.

Syria is a major threat, not just to Israel, but also to any peace process and also to Mahmoud Abbas. And it's a nexus together with the Hezbollah and Iran, which really is the major strategic threat for any moving forward in a political dialogue, which will hopefully reach peace.

BLITZER: The fact that we have, sitting around this table right here, the Israeli ambassador, the Jordanian ambassador, the Egyptian ambassador to the United States, Arab ambassadors and Israeli ambassador, that would suggest the casual viewers that, Ambassador Fahmy, there's a moment, there's an opportunity right now.

The Israelis have been meeting with the Palestinians directly to get this peace process back on track.

What's your assessment?

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: Well, I want to make two points on that.

One, we have been trying for the last 25 years. I mean, the Egyptian-Israeli peace is over 25 years now, and Jordan also has an agreement. So, it's not that there hasn't been an effort. It's just simply very, very difficult to bring these issues to closure.

But to your point, I think there is a moment, not simply because we were able to bring Prime Minister Sharon and President Abbas to Sharm el-Sheikh, where President Mubarak met them with King Abdullah, but because the politics on both sides, in my reading, in Israel and among Palestinians, are verging in the same direction.

Mahmoud Abbas wants to prove to his people he can succeed as a leader by giving them some hope and some opening toward the future rather than a continuous cycle of violence. And I think Prime Minister Sharon wants to prove that his Gaza first withdrawal can be a success.

So, for the next couple of months, I hope and I think there are some indications that the two sides will continue to try to work together.

There will always be somebody challenging the peace process. That's always the case. The point is not to allow those who challenge it to seize the agenda.

BLITZER: Ambassador Kawar, your foreign minister, the Jordanian foreign minister, is in Jerusalem today meeting with the Israeli leadership, including Prime Minister Sharon.

What's your assessment, right now, about this Israeli-Palestinian peace process getting back on track and a negotiation really get going?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: This is an opportunity, Wolf. Anytime that the conflicting sides talk to each other, it's an opportunity.

And we are seizing that as the Jordanian side that's not in conflict but is supporting both the Israelis and the Palestinians to move forward. We believe that we can play a very critical role in supporting this effort and overcoming the differences that both sides see. For example, one of the things we were discussing is sending a brigade, the Badr forces, who are Palestinians that have been trained in Jordan, to help in the security situation in the West Bank. And we think that would hopefully overcome some of the challenges.

But I do agree with Nabil that it's important to maintain the dialogue. The cease-fire that has been reached is very fragile, and we should not allow for anyone to hijack that agenda.

BLITZER: Is that an initiative that Israel would welcome, sending these security forces from Jordan into the West Bank?

AMBASSADOR AYALON: Well, it remains to be seen. I'm not sure that we need any foreign elements right now to come into the area. I think it is well within the power of Mahmoud Abbas and his security forces to tackle the issues, and certainly with our help. And we are very much willing to help. We have been helping.

In Gaza, I think we see that the deployment of his troops did help. We would like to see the same things happening in the West Bank.

But it is not just a matter of rhetorics, which we welcome very much, his rhetorics, his intentions and his moves. It will have to be also a long-term plan, how to deal with the terror in a root-canal fashion.

And that is not just a cease-fire. This will call for the disbanding, for the dismantlement, taking the arms from the terror organizations and not letting them to have a word or keep us all hostages so they can attack whenever is convenient or strategically suited to their purposes.

BLITZER: Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, a man you admire, a man you believe is a serious partner for peace, he says he's willing to do that. He's going to try to do that. But he also wants gestures, actions from the Israelis, to show that Israel is sincere as well.

You've released some Palestinian prisoners. What else is Israel planning on doing to suggest to the Palestinians that they have a partner in the peace process?

AMBASSADOR AYALON: Well, we have released some prisoners. We're going to release some more. There is going to be a, fairly soon, high-level meeting between Prime Minister Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas.

So we're going work together. And this is the most important, I think, element to project to ourselves, to the region and beyond, that we are working together.

There is now a common interest for the Palestinian Authority and with Israel and, I think, also with the regional partners. And Egypt and Jordan are also very instrumental.

So we see a good trend going. As I mentioned, the only problem we have right now is with those who are against this. And this is Syria, Hezbollah and Iran. But I hope that they can be isolated, once the issue was identified, and that the momentum will keep going.

Israel is willing to move ahead. We are going to meet and we are coordinating with the Palestinians almost on a daily basis. Of course, we had this terror attack last Friday, which hampered our attempts, but we are trying to overcome it.

It will have to come from both sides working together on a sustainable basis, and we are ready to do that.

BLITZER: We're going to take another quick break. But we have more to talk about, including democracy spreading throughout the Middle East. Is it going to happen?

We'll have more with our panel right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're talking with the Jordanian, Egyptian and Israeli ambassadors to the United States. They're all here in our studio.

I'll begin with Ambassador Fahmy of Egypt on this round.

The Washington Post, in an editorial -- you may have read it on Monday -- reacting to President Mubarak's decision to allow opposition candidates to run for president of Egypt, wrote this:

"Mr. Mubarak said nothing about lifting his emergency laws, which curtail freedom of speech and the right of assembly. By his rules, one of Egypt's most important political movements, the Muslim Brotherhood, would be excluded from the election, while the most plausible legal candidate, Ayman Nour, remains in jail."

There were suggestions that Condoleezza Rice canceled the visit to Egypt to protest the arrest of this opposition figure, Ayman Nour.

Is he about to be released? Is he still in prison? What's the status of this opposition figure?

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: I expect, in the next two or three days, the attorney general will make a determination as a result of this investigation whether there is evidence enough regarding forgery of documents.

This is not about freedom of speech. It's not about his political activity. It's about forgery of documents.

If there is evidence, he will then release him and take him to court. If there isn't evidence, he will release him, and the case will be closed.

BLITZER: Because he's a respected opposition political figure.

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: He's a member of a party that is not part of the majority. That he is the leader of the opposition is a bit of a stretch, but that's not the point.

The point is that it's the attorney general looking at this case about forgery. And in a day or two, whichever way he rules, either the court will be mandated or the case will be dropped.

BLITZER: A lot of people are skeptical about President Mubarak's plan to hold free and fair elections for president of Egypt. Should they be skeptical? What's going to happen? Walk us through this process, how democracy is going to take hold in Egypt.

AMBASSADOR FAHMY: Well, I think you don't understand what is actually happening here. We have been having a debate about changing our election law and our constitution for over two and a half years, because the election was set for next September six years ago.

So we knew we were going to have an election this time six years ago. Therefore the forces for change and majority party start gathering and debating a number of years before. So we've known this is going to happen.

BLITZER: President Mubarak will run for re-election.

FAHMY: He has not announced yet, but we'll see.

What he's done, which is very interesting, is rather than get into a debate of the less fundamental details of the constitution that still may need change and probably will, he started to prove it by example, by saying, "OK, I'm going to be the example. I will change the way my post is chosen." So he didn't say, "Well, you can start from the bottom and get to the top." He started from the very top. And it's a very important message.

Now, there will be other changes, by the way. He did not say that this is the only change. There is a dialogue...

BLITZER: So this is a real change that you see happening in Egypt?

FAHMY: Oh, of course.

BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about Jordan now. There had been elections for parliament in Jordan. Is what happened in Iraq having a dramatic spillover effect in Jordan and other countries in the Arab world?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: Wolf, Jordan reinstated its elected parliament back in '89, so it's not new. But, yes, it has allowed us to be able to take on new initiatives.

His Majesty King Abdullah just announced back in January that there would be local parliaments that would be elected. This is yet to be designed. A commission has been tasked to look at that approach of maybe three or four locally elected parliaments to give more power to the people.

But democracy cannot happen overnight, and this is where we believe every country has to evolve into its own model.

BLITZER: But you're encouraged by what you see in the Arab world?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: Certainly. It's a positive move forward. The elections in Iraq, the Iraqis are going out to vote despite the threats on their lives, is remarkable. They are saluted for taking...

BLITZER: Does President Bush deserve some credit for that?

AMBASSADOR KAWAR: Well, certainly his leadership has helped many to move forward. But still, I mean, it's premature. Tom Friedman was talking about the tipping point, whether this would tip this way or the other. We have yet to see.

BLITZER: There's a lot of concern in Israel, Mr. Ambassador, as you well know, that the pullout from Gaza, the pullout from some settlements in the West Bank could cause a situation where Israeli Jews are fighting Israeli Jews.

And a lot of our viewers will remember that the late prime minister Itzhak Rabin was killed, was assassinated by an Israeli Jew.

How concerned are you that there could be this kind of strife developing within Israel?

AMBASSADOR AYALON: Well, we are concerned. And I think it goes to show really the enormity of the task that Prime Minister Sharon has taken upon himself. And he does something that has never been done before. It's painful for us, for the Israeli society, excruciatingly so. But we are determined to do it, because we believe this is the right thing for Israel, for the region, for the Palestinians. And we will continue to do that.

But, Wolf, we certainly applaud and admire the leadership of President Bush in the changes which he's bringing about and also his determined fight against international terrorism. We view very positively any step which will bring into openness, into more democracy and also into more economic, I would say, opportunities for everybody in the region.

For that issue you have mentioned that the foreign minister, the foreign minister of...

BLITZER: Jordan.

AMBASSADOR AYALON: ... Jordan, Hani Mulki, was today. He discussed also with the prime minister issues of economic joint venture.

We also have economic joint ventures with Egypt, with the QIZs importing together and buying natural gas from -- so I think by joining Egypt, Jordan, Israel, other countries into a regional economic club, that could also be very beneficial for the region and will support the peace movements that we are trying to engage in.

BLITZER: I think all of you will agree there's a moment right now, there's an opportunity. Let's hope it pans out and develops productively.

I want to thank the ambassadors from Israel, Jordan and Egypt for joining us here on "LATE EDITION."

And we'll take a quick break. Up next, the results of our Web question of the week: Should Syrian troops fully withdraw from Lebanon?

Plus, "LATE EDITION"'s Sunday morning talk-show roundup. If you missed the other four Sunday talk shows, we'll give you the highlights.
 

Biography II Events with the Ambassador II Archive of Speeches, Statements & Interviews